I Need Love

Films Not Made
Episode 1: I Need Love

Amy Hobby: Hi, I am Amy Hobby.

Avi Weider: And I'm Avi Zev Wieder. And this is Films Not Made.

Amy Hobby: Where we invite directors, producers, and writers and talk about their favorite projects that were developed and never went into production.

Avi Weider: And then we take their original materials, we put it through our own AI pipeline, and we create a new deck and trailer. Then to round it out, we have a quick conversation with our own creative AI executive.

Amy Hobby: Could this project be made now? Should it have been made back then, or are we just giving our guests a little closure?

Avi Weider: Welcome to Films Not Made.

Amy Hobby: Welcome to Films Not Made. I am Amy Hobby.

Avi Weider: And I'm Avi Zev Weider. Today we have two guests. Michael Tully is a filmmaker and founding editor of Hammer to Nail, the website about ambitious cinema. His debut film, Cocaine Angel, one of Filmmaker Magazine's 25 New Faces of Independent Film. He followed that with the David Berman doc, Silver Jew, and then Septien, which premiered at Sundance and got picked up by IFC .his 1980s coming of age film Ping Pong Summer premiered at Sundance in 2014.

Amy Hobby: Our second guest is a longtime colleague of mine, Loren Hammonds. He's a Peabody Award-winning producer and curator. He's currently head of documentary at Time Studios. He previously was the VP of immersive programming at Tribeca Film where we both worked. At an after work party I discovered an unexpected gift of his when he showed up to karaoke.

Avi Weider: You see, it turns out that Loren was in a hip-hop band and his emcee name was Mojo the Cinematic.

Amy Hobby: Which is relevant because today Michael's here to talk about a script he wrote during COVID called I Need Love, A hip-hop Fantasy. It's a love story between LL Cool J and Kool Moe Dee during their legendary 1987 Beef. Michael even pitched it to Kool Moe Dee and we made a trailer. Loren's here to weigh in.

Avi Weider: Welcome to Films Not Made. Just give us the quick one sentence elevator pitch if you were sitting down at like CAA. Just give us the hot pitch on it.

Michael Tully: Yeah, so the movie pitch is a Krush Groove Meets Brokeback Mountain. Super quick pitch. And then the story pitch is just the real life rivalry of LL Cool J and Kool Moe Dee and the mid-'80s. But in this version behind closed doors, they're falling in love.

Amy Hobby: Loren, do you take that meeting?

Loren Hammonds: I absolutely take that meeting. Are you kidding?

Michael Tully: Thank you.

Loren Hammonds: It's definitely intriguing to me. I love something that takes from reality and just gives you that alternate universe take on it. I think that people who remember that beef or that battle, which is obviously one of the legendary hip-hop battles, would find it interesting. Now, would it get across at Paramount with LL there? Probably not. But look, if I read the synopsis I'd watch.

Amy Hobby: So I want to know, Michael, where were you in your life and career when you thought about writing this? What was your headspace?

Michael Tully: I don't remember the specific when I just know this idea had been around for a while. It wasn't during that era for sure. It was probably my New York years of 2000 to 2020. At some point I had this idea of ... And the initial spark was the Wild Wild West video, which it's pretty iconic. But the idea of a surreptitious meeting where Moe Dee is like they've broken the scene and then LL comes and he's like, "What are you doing here?" And that was the spark, and I would tell people about this idea and they were like, "That sounds unbelievable. That's great." But I'm like, "I'm not going to waste time writing it because it's never going to happen." But then COVID happened and the initial window was like, no movies are ever going to be made ever again. It's like no one's ever going to make a movie. So I was like, "Why don't I write the movie that will never be made anyway?"

Michael Tully: So I used COVID. That became an opportunity for me to actually sit down and get it out. So it happened just a few years ago, but for probably at least 10 years or 15 years before that. And I just thought it was interesting and again, not because people say, is it a parody or is it sincere? And I'm like, yes, could you make a movie that's both [inaudible 00:04:48]? That's my favorite kind of movie is like, it is not taking itself seriously and it totally is, but that was the challenge of trying to write something. So I leaned into it. Lie when LL has his first orgasm with Moe Dee, he does the awww, like the end of the Bad video, and I just thought that's amazing.

Loren Hammonds: Oh, wow.

Michael Tully: So it's goofy, but also I did want there to be a sincerity. And to Avi's point, I have actually gotten screenwriting work using it as a sample. I haven't been paid to write this script, whatever, but it has led to something and I think anyone I've talked to who confirmed that the sample was why they selected me was because they said it rode this line of sincerity and silliness, but somehow it felt like it was both of them at the same time.

Avi Weider: Do you see a line of that sensibility in your other work that you've come through? Because there is a thing like Ping Pong Summer is set in '80 with beatboxing. Can you draw a line through the work that would take you to this?

Michael Tully: Yeah. Well, it also goes back to just my childhood. Ping Pong Summer is a love letter to my Maryland childhood, but being a hip-hop fan in the middle of nowhere in Maryland. I won tickets off V103 Baltimore to see Run DMC and I was like, Frank Ski this legendary Baltimore DJ, and he's like, "Michael Tully from Ridgeline Drive in Mount Airy Maryland." I'm like, "He just said that on the radio?" So it definitely goes deep for me, just the love of hip-hop and then just cinema-wise, I like being entertained. So I love movies that are funny, but they're called dramas. And Ping Pong Summer, not to its detriment, but for good and bad I thought that movie we got into Sundance and we're like, "Is this going to be a Napoleon Dynamite? Is there going to be a bidding war?" And very quickly it was like, no, there's not going to be. We found a great-

Amy Hobby: No, you're just the rest of us, Michael.

Michael Tully: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, that was the one-

Avi Weider: Welcome to Films Not Made.

Michael Tully: Yeah. Welcome to Films Not Made. I think I'm on every episode this season. But that idea of Ping Pong Summer, I think people are like, what is the movie? Is it sincere? Is it serious? And the people that respond to that work and that film, I do think there's a direct line. This one's more stylized obviously, and it's dealing with real characters, real people from history, but the same line, I think Ping Pong Summer there for good and bad, it's like both taking itself mocking the films of the era, but also being sincere with its emotions, which is a tricky line to ride and maybe I haven't gotten there yet.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Loren, you're a curator and you watch a gazillion movies, so scripted, doc, everything.

Loren Hammonds: I have. I have.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. This film comes in for festival curation or whatever. How do you think about that in terms of tone and where it goes?

Loren Hammonds: Yeah. Like I said before, I'm a big fan oddities in cinema, and I think when you're doing something that really relies on a specialized tone, you just have to nail it. And if you nail it, I believe that there's a place for that film. I think that there's an opportunity for audiences who really love things that can't be put into a box very neatly. And that's what this sounds like so I'd be into it.

Amy Hobby: As a documentary producer, I have some films that are being adapted into narrative screenplays. I don't know if they'll ever be made, but have you been involved in this sort of process? What is that like for our audience? What is that doc to fiction pipeline?

Loren Hammonds: Yeah. We've just been talking about one right now. We had a film that was released by HBO about a year and a half ago called The Lionheart, and we've been talking about ways to adapt that into a narrative because it's just a really beautiful story that I think lends itself to it and has a great female protagonist at the center as well. I think it's delicate. Especially when the subjects are living subjects who you've probably gotten to know from being on the festival circuit with them or doing Q&As and all of that stuff. Just really understanding what the delicacy of adapting it and finding someone to care enough about the story to first of all, write the screenplay in a way that retains that emotion and retains that reality, but also heightens it because you want a little bit of that for a narrative film and you have to take some liberties, which it can be a challenge to talk to those subjects about that. Like well, maybe it didn't happen exactly this way, but top of the third act we need this at this moment.

Amy Hobby: Well this take some liberties maybe.

Avi Weider: Yeah, I do want-

Loren Hammonds: None of us know, right?

Amy Hobby: Yeah. No. Who knows?

Avi Weider: This would be quite a mountain to climb in terms of sign-offs. Were you hesitant to submit it as a sample? Who was the real first just blind, they didn't know about it or anything?

Michael Tully: My brain is bad. I have small children and I'm under slept and I don't remember, actually. I shared it initially with George Rush. A lot of people in our industry now know George as a producer, entertainment lawyer, sales agent. And George is if I'm going to get a movie made, it's going to be with George so I sent it to him initially. He knows my sense of humor and I know what he likes. So that was a hometown crowd. Although I've sent him scripts and I'm like, "Let's make this," and he is like, "Do you got any other scripts?" So it's not like he's just a yes-man friend. But I think really got a kick out of it and was like, "Oh my God, you actually pulled this off. This feels like a movie and a script."

Michael Tully: I shared it with George. I think I had my wife read it. Again, these are favorable readers. I'm trying to think. I didn't submit it anywhere, like a Black List or just production company where I didn't know anyone. I really think the only times I've shared it ... I have not shared it with many people yet. Brandon Harris, who was at the time ... I think Brandon was still at Amazon or he was leaving Amazon, but he's also a friend, but I shared it with him just to get a sense of, will I get shot if the wrong person reads this or does it feel sincere? And he seemed to agree. He had a sense of ... A positive reaction. I'll just leave it at that maybe and let him speak to it.

Michael Tully: But I think it was this one project, a New York producer. George had knew the producer and they were looking for someone to collaborate with the director who was adapting a book, a memoir. So they were people that I just had no idea, and I was like, "You know what, I'm going to ..." It's not similar. It was like a Vietnamese American coming of age, but it was period. So I think they were also thinking Ping Pong Summer, and I shared it with them and just was like, I'm either going to get the gig or definitely not get the gig and not make new friends either out of this situation and it got me the gig.

Avi Weider: Maybe it'll get you more work. So was there any attempt to package it?

Michael Tully: We did go to Kool Moe Dee with the pitch.

Amy Hobby: No way.

Loren Hammonds: Really?

Avi Weider: Here we go.

Loren Hammonds: I want to hear that story.

Michael Tully: At this point. Why not? I also think we can talk about the idea of why don't I just change the names and make it fake rappers from the '80? I just don't think it holds up. I've had some people ... My music supervisor at Ping Pong Summer is like, it's a good enough story, just do that. But without the cultural imprint, I feel like the point is just lost to me. It doesn't hold up. So George reached out to Kool Moe Dee's manager, who was his manager at the time and is still his manager, Lavaba Mallison. He seemed to open enough, and then George Rush got on the phone with Moe Dee, I think for about a three-minute call, and he told him ... He said it was an alternative history love story about the beef with LL. I think it was left at Moe Dee said, "That sounds interesting. Send me a treatment." I did write up a two-page treatment that did not go into detail of the encounters that happen in the film. How lovely it gets.

Amy Hobby: You're just sticking a toe in, right.

Avi Weider: You buried the lead is what you're saying.

Michael Tully: Yeah. I buried all of the leads and we have not heard back.

Loren Hammonds: I would be so curious. Because I think Kool Moe Dee, I've seen him in films recently. He's primarily an actor now, right? He's like, "Mohammed Dewese." And I'm like, "That's Kool Moe Dee. Definitely." So I'm very curious to see what he would think. He's probably played against whatever his type was as his emcee persona before. I know he wouldn't be in the film, but just to have an open mind about it.

Michael Tully: That's the thing is the perspective or the open mind when it's like, it sounds great in theory, but the reality with this movie being made and signing off on your character being so different. I'm not just even saying Kool Moe Dee or LL Cool J, any of us would we have that ... It's not even courage. I don't know what the word is for it, but just to be able to make peace and say, "Go off children. Make your movie."

Avi Weider: It would require a certain dispassionate stance on whatever your personality identity is. I would expect Kool Moe Dee to come on as a producer also in that instance. Loren could probably talk to this. If you're doing stuff with real people and life rights, don't they usually come on as producers of the project?

Loren Hammonds: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Especially in a narrative space. In a documentary space, we try to avoid that honestly.

Amy Hobby: Just separate that. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Tully: Yeah.

Avi Weider: Because it's just not ethically sound. Yeah. You want to make sure that you're able to tell the story without the interference of the actual person, and they just have to give you that trust. It's often hard to get it. Take some time to gain it, but I think when they really do it and they say, "Okay. We're going to let you go with it.", that's when the movies are most powerful in nonfiction at least.

Michael Tully: But I do wonder in this case, technically parody is what it is. That sounds denigrating the sincerity of the project, but it is. And even George said ... I think you call it a hip-hop fantasy. I think it's actually fairy tale, which is a double entendre with this movie also. Calling it in the title fairy tale-

Loren Hammonds: That's a tagline right there.

Amy Hobby: Yeah.

Michael Tully: Absolutely. I think George is saying you're protecting yourself. So that's also the other layer of if you're making a narrative about a real person, but it's not what really happened, does that change the conversation to do they need to be involved and want to be involved, or are they like, "This clearly has nothing to do with me actually, so just go off and do your thing." But you want people to be supportive in any capacity.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. I'm curious about thoughts around the audience and fan base. Is this something where the film gets made and Tully is open to getting injured?

Michael Tully: Has everyone ever been shot at a Q&A for their movie?

Loren Hammonds: The question is by who. At this point LL Cool J, as I mentioned before, he's an amazing entrepreneur and businessman and star of CBS dramas and philanthropists, right?

Avi Weider: Totally.

Loren Hammonds: I'm sure he's also very, very mindful of his avatar and his legacy, and that's a challenge. I think that's probably where the challenge lies, right? Michael?

Michael Tully: Yeah.

Loren Hammonds: What's so fascinating to me when I heard the concept of the script though is just revisiting the feelings around hip-hop culture and homosexuality and these kinds of relationships. In the time that you're talking about that is 100% taboo and never ever, ever. But now hip-hop remains a young person's genre. I think even as the elders grow and continue to ... Nas released five albums last year. They were all ridiculous. They're amazing. But still kids feel like it's theirs. And kids these days are way more open to experimentation with sexuality and just the understanding of people are people and people are who they are, and you see artists responding to that. Artists like Tyler the creator. I would wonder what people would make of it now. I think people are less standoffish and less, no way, no way, except for maybe the two people at the heart of your film. That would be the hardest problem.

Michael Tully: But we also have Russell Simmons in there and there's a lot of politics.

Loren Hammonds: I can't wait. I would've pushed back there.

Michael Tully: I end the script ... The PDF of the last page is a scan of the cover of the Source magazine in May 1993 with LL on the cover. I wrote a letter to the editor and they published it in the Source, and it's about homophobia in hip-hop.

Avi Weider: That's right.

Michael Tully: It's cringe worthy what I write. I'm like, I am not a calling it a homosexual, although my terminology is very wrong, but the spirit of what I was saying was right. So that I also feel like it's not like there's any street cred here. I made up this idea. But just in the sense of it had been on my mind and I was thinking about it, and it did always bother me a little bit in hip-hop rapping along and just the misogyny and homophobia. Sometimes you're just like, ah. Dr. Dre's Bitches Ain't Shit is one of the best beats ever when you're just like, this is the greatest song in my life. But man, it's a little ...

Loren Hammonds: Yeah. It's a bop, but you cannot play it for your daughter or your son for that matter.

Michael Tully: Selective bop.

Amy Hobby: What did Mojo the Cinematic rap about? What was the name of your band?

Michael Tully: Yeah. I want to hear about this.

Loren Hammonds: Dujeous.

Amy Hobby: Dujeous. Dujeous.

Loren Hammonds: Dujeous was was the name of my band. We were a live hip-hop band. High school was Giuliani time and it was not pleasant for a person that looked like me. I think Giuliani at that point had emboldened the NYPD to basically terrorize me and my friends after school. So a lot of it is the grievances of systemic issues in New York City and beyond. And then we also rapped a lot about how great we were at rapping. That was a pretty. That's a topic that we did not stray far from.

Amy Hobby: Avi, you want to talk about what we did next with our tech friends?

Avi Weider: Part of what we do now is you had a script, we ask everyone who comes on to send us whatever they have, what they're willing to share. In this case, we have your script and we put it through some AI models that we use, and we came up with a new pitch deck that created some imagery, some casting, some copy, and we're going to go through that now. After that, we're going to take a look at a video trailer that we made also using some AI models based on your script, what you gave us. So we're going to start off now with the deck. Here we go.

Avi Weider: So on the cover here, we basically see LL and Kool Moe Dee standing in front of what looks like a boxing ring with a cheering crowd. '80s. I think that will be revealed why there's a boxing ring there. Actually, Michael, why don't you just give us some of the ... Why would we be seeing that here? Again, everything in here was pulled out of the script.

Michael Tully: So the hook of the film now that I came up with is a crown the king MC battle. So a pay-per-view battle like in the '80. So Russell was like, "Oh my god, this could be so much money." So they're going to at Madison Square Garden, get in a ring and have a just throw down like an MC battle, but it's also pay-per-view to maximize the monetary. So they do end up in the ring. The last scene is literally them in a ring about to battle. So yes, that is accurate.

Avi Weider: Kool Moe Dee looks a little like Blade here. So moving into here we have your high concept Krush Groove meets Brokeback Mountain. There's an image of a New York Street in the '80s.

Amy Hobby: With a wet down. Yeah.

Avi Weider: They definitely wet it down.

Amy Hobby: We have a budget.

Avi Weider: The full quote says "The loudest thing in the room is what you're not allowed to say." And here's the log line. "At the height of hip-hop's first golden age, a bitter rivalry between an ascendant teenage rap star and an embattled elder legend masks a dangerous secret, a forbidden love that could destroy their careers, their identities, and the culture watching them crown a king."

Amy Hobby: Okay.

Avi Weider: Okay. And then the elevator pitch is I Need Love is a hip-hop fairy tale set in New York City, 1987 at the moment, rap becomes big business and emotional honesty becomes a liability. Built around the real life rivalry between LL Cool J and Kool Moe Dee, the film reframes the public beef as a performance masking a private truth neither man can afford to live openly. As fame accelerates and culture hardens around them desires collide with legacy, masculinity and fear. The world is loud, competitive and unforgiving. The love story is quiet, urgent, and dangerous. What's at stake isn't just a crown, it's survival. So the thing we asked next is to come up with a style for the film, a look and a feel to pick what it thinks is the best one. And here it picked what it calls mythic verite. Amy, why don't you take this one?

Amy Hobby: Mythic Verite. Okay. I've never heard of this style. But a split visual language-

Avi Weider: It makes all this stuff up.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Yeah. A split visual language that contrasts public spectacle with private intimacy. The public world is bold and high contrast stages, flash bulbs smoke and cameras turning hip-hop into instant myth. In New York City, 1987, the private world is closer and quieter, handheld, softer light, visible grain, breath and skin where truth leaks out under pressure. The tension between the two is the story image versus self. And it has a new tagline. Rocky meets Moonlight.

Michael Tully: I feel like this should be on an episode of The Studio now for season two. I will say here ... Can I say that that hotel room shot that we're looking at feels very, very accurate to my mind writing it.

Avi Weider: Oh, nice.

Amy Hobby: Excellent.

Michael Tully: I will give the technology props there because that feels like in the vibe of what I was thinking.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. What we've learned in the show so far is that AI can't deduce where smoke is coming from. There's always some smoke in the shots and it's coming from someone's arm. I don't know where that smoke is coming from.

Avi Weider: You know what? I was wondering why it was doing this and then I figured it out. It's because in the little style prompt, it says visible breath, and so all the pictures made it look like it was like 25 degrees inside where you could see everyone's breath It took it literally.

Loren Hammonds: And retained LL's signature red Kangol in every shot so far.

Avi Weider: A hundred percent.

Amy Hobby: Every shot.

Michael Tully: That is the subplot. Loren. Loren, I'll just tell ... Well, telling everyone is the subplot is he won't take his hat off and then he finally does, and his head is just like ... Because the myth, I feel like we were always talking about what's under there? Does he have bumps all over his head and lumps? And he does have lumps and then he can't grow hair. He's just like, "I can't grow hair, Moe," and Moe Dee's like, "Keep the hat off, man. I'm in."

Avi Weider: All right. So now we're going to move into casting. LL Cool J, a prodigy at the moment of explosion, caught between invincibility and an emotional truth he doesn't yet have the language for. Top choice, who we see here, Kelvin Harrison Jr. Volatile. Magnetic. We ask it to cast everything. Give us top three, but we'll show-

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Kelvin's great. He was in the film Luce. I don't know if people saw that. L-U-C-E. I guess he just played Basquiat in another Basquiat film.

Michael Tully: Can I say who my LL was? I didn't have anyone else in mind.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Tully: It was Jharrel Jerome, who I think is just a great actor. And it was fitting two years ago and I was like, "Could we actually make this?" So that name didn't come up, but I think there's an LL-ness to that face, but also just as an actor, I think he's great in everything.

Avi Weider: Kool Moe Dee.

Amy Hobby: Travante Rhodes. The co-lead of Moonlight.

Michael Tully: That's a good call, actually. I hadn't even thought of that. That is a good call.

Amy Hobby: He's described by AI as contained and formidable.

Avi Weider: Who did you have in mind for casting Kool Moe Dee?

Michael Tully: I didn't, but Travante Rhodes, I was like, oh, I could see ... It feels ... Yeah. I'm going with AI here. I like that idea.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. We have a nice shot of him in the hallway in the traditional leather jacket.

Avi Weider: Russell Simmons, a visionary hustler who turns culture into commerce and treats people as pieces on a board.

Amy Hobby: Oh man, my favorite LaKeith Stanfield. I was on a Jury with LaKeith at Tribeca actually back in the day.

Loren Hammonds: That must've been fun.

Amy Hobby: It was so fun.

Loren Hammonds: I remember that year.

Amy Hobby: Yeah.

Loren Hammonds: I remember seeing him at the Jury. Yeah.

Amy Hobby: He's so smart. I was pretty excited to be on a Jury with him. But he's in Atlanta. We know him from that, but he's also in every cool movie. He's what? Get Out, Dope.

Loren Hammonds: Sorry to Bother You.

Amy Hobby: Dope. Sorry to Bother You. Right.

Avi Weider: One of my kid's favorite films is Sorry to Bother You actually.

Amy Hobby: Oh, wow.

Michael Tully: Oh, nice.

Amy Hobby: Who did you think of Michael?

Michael Tully: I haven't thought that far because I'm like this will never be made, so I didn't even bother.

Amy Hobby: You didn't get that far.

Michael Tully: Why bother?

Avi Weider: We're up to E-Love. A loyal friend whose unspoken love complicates masculinity, friendship, and silence.

Michael Tully: Well, there's Jharrel Jerome now they came around. Stephen James I think is a good idea.

Amy Hobby: Caleb McLaughlin. He's the kid in Stranger Things, right? Lucas?

Avi Weider: Janelle.

Amy Hobby: Oh, there's a woman. Amazing.

Avi Weider: A perceptive woman who senses the truth early and refuses to live inside a lie. That's true, Michael it's a pretty male script. Did you have any consideration for that when you were writing it?

Michael Tully: Yeah. Janelle is totally made ... I don't know if Moe Dee was, I had a live-in girlfriend. That was all made up. I just re-scanned the script this morning just to make sure my ducks were in a row and she's not in it ... It's about LL and Moe Dee and hip-hop was a very masculine ... I know there were execs in people and even the Source, the editor and there's Dream Hampton, all these people. There was a mix in the industry, but it did feel lopsided. So I tried to put a few. To have Janelle be a really solid presence in his life, and her suggestion actually gets Moe Dee to make the suggestion to Russell and them about the pay-per-view and stuff like that. So I was thinking about it. I wasn't trying to fit anything into a box necessarily and force it, but it just felt organic to the story to have Janelle be not super present, but also a strong presence.

Amy Hobby: In the photo. She's sitting at a desk like when she's in Mad Men and reading the trades, I guess because it's the late '80s. She's got a Variety, New York Times.

Avi Weider: Looks like Spin or something in front of her.

Amy Hobby: Coffee cup.

Michael Tully: Yeah, it does.

Amy Hobby: Is she like a publicist in the script?

Michael Tully: No. She's just a regular life worker. She's not in the industry at all. That was one point I wanted to make where she's just like, "I get it. You're doing this weird entertainment thing, but we got to be honest with each other." Yeah. I don't know if Janelle would be reading Spin with a Coffee, but ...

Avi Weider: And then we have basically some storyboard frames.

Michael Tully: Another one.

Amy Hobby: We have a new pitch.

Michael Tully: It's another one.

Loren Hammonds: Yes.

Avi Weider: And underneath it says 8 Mile meets Call Me by Your Name, which is another ...

Michael Tully: To anyone who's listening or watching this. I want to reiterate, I will own Krush Groove meets Brokeback Mountain. Anything else, I am not taking any credit for.

Avi Weider: Storyboard frames in the middle. We got LL in the ring. We've got LL coming down at a hotel hallway with Kool Moe Dee in the background. Some more hotel scenes, like a boardroom scene it looks like with Russell Simmons.

Amy Hobby: Yeah.

Avi Weider: Like a press briefing.

Loren Hammonds: And then is that Moe Dee and Janelle there?

Avi Weider: Yeah. Moe Dee and Janelle. I don't know why it's such a ratty apartment. So what we do next is we actually come up with some poster concepts also for your marketing.

Michael Tully: Oh, my gosh.

Amy Hobby: We're ready.

Avi Weider: And we've got three-

Amy Hobby: Amazing

Avi Weider: Three here.

Amy Hobby: Yeah.

Avi Weider: The one on the left, Amy, why don't you break it down for us.

Amy Hobby: They're in the ring. It's like the big budget version. They're in the ring. There's paparazzi flash bulbs. Huge crowd. Feels like it's going to be on Pay-per-view. It looks like it premiered at Sundance, like Tully's other films.

Avi Weider: Yeah. And Toronto.

Michael Tully: Oh, great. We got into Sundance. Awesome.

Avi Weider: There's a Variety pull quote.

Loren Hammonds: Congrats. Congrats.

Amy Hobby: What's the pull quote?

Avi Weider: The pull quote from Variety is a daring reframe of hip-hop mythology.

Amy Hobby: Oh, that's good. I like that.

Avi Weider: Yeah. The middle one right on top, it says Rocky meets Moonlight, and it's a very intimate picture of LL and Moe Dee with their foreheads touching in a serif font below it. It says I Need Love.

Amy Hobby: You got into Cannes?

Avi Weider: Yeah. No. It's in competition.

Michael Tully: Oh my God. We got into Cannes with that one. Cool.

Loren Hammonds: That's huge.

Avi Weider: The IndieWire pull quote is tender, dangerous and quietly radical.

Amy Hobby: All right. It's not that either, actually. Yeah.

Avi Weider: The one on the very right is ... I don't know. Almost cartoonish, illustrated one with these illustrated LL Cool J and Kool Moe Dee in a ring surrounded by musical notes. There's a Hollywood Reporter pull quote that says, "The smartest music movie in years," and another quote says, "Winning was easy. Telling the truth was not." Oh, I did want to ask ... And this is for both guests. Any favorite hip-hop movies?

Amy Hobby: Oh, yeah.

Avi Weider: Especially Michael that maybe you were thinking of. Obviously you said Krush Groove, but any others that are load stars for you?

Michael Tully: There's a documentary called ... Was it Big Fun in the Big Town? Yeah. Big Fun in the Big Town, 1986 documentary. And I think they were Dutch filmmakers came over with 16 millimeter and were filming like LL Run-DMC, Doug E. Fresh-

Avi Weider: Holy Crap.

Michael Tully: On a stoop teaching kids How to Beatbox, which I took that scene and put that in Ping Pong Summer when there's a little beatbox session with the kids. That was taken from that. It's a classic. I bought that actually as a rap present for the crew. I got DVDs of it for everyone for Ping Pong Summer because that's how close it was to my heart. I watched them all. I Breakin' with Reckless when Ice-T. That song in the soundtrack was one of my first windows in and being in suburban Maryland. So even the Breakin'. I still make the Breakin' 2 Electric Boogaloo joke every day of the week, and I'm 51 years old. Those weren't good movies, but I'd say yeah, Krush Groove is also a little cheeky, but I still genuinely love it.

Avi Weider: Okay.

Amy Hobby: Loren-

Loren Hammonds: Definitely Wild Style is one of favorites.

Amy Hobby: Oh, Wild Style. Charlie Ahern. Yeah. That's a great one.

Loren Hammonds: Charlie Ahern. Exactly. And it's got just all of the OGs in there and all of the amazing writers too and I think that's always important. Krush Groove, I agree with you, Michael. It's not a good movie. And there is a re-imagined Russell Simmons in there. Blair Underwood basically plays Russell Simmons in that movie. It still holds up though, and it's fun. It's like this candy coated look at the rise of Def Jam. There's some great documentaries too. Like The Show from the '90s, which really captured all of these amazing artists all at once, Method Man and Redman and DMX, just the rise of the superstars in hip-hop in the '90s. That one is really ... I wanted to say something about the posters because the last poster that we talked about, the animated one that Avi was talking about, what struck me about it ... Because I was like, that's weird first, and then I'm like, actually, it draws from the original hip-hop flyers. There's stars exploding in the background and all these things where it was like, you go to a park jam, that's what the flyer would look like with these guys crudely drawn on it. So I think that's wild tat AI even thought to do that.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. I like that one. That's my favorite actually.

Avi Weider: I think there's one more poster. It went very ...

Amy Hobby: Oh, I see.

Avi Weider: Very '80.

Michael Tully: This one went very Miami Vice.

Avi Weider: Exactly. This one did. Yeah. Yeah. Synthwave almost. This one does say Krush Groove meets Brokeback Mountain. It's a very airbrushed portraiture of both leads against ... I don't know what city that is. It's like Pittsburgh something.

Amy Hobby: I thought it was Cleveland.

Avi Weider: Could be Cleveland. They made them legends. Truth made them dangerous.

Michael Tully: I think it's New Jack City is what the city is.

Avi Weider: Oh yeah, there you go.

Amy Hobby: Oh yeah, it's New Jack City.

Avi Weider: They might have been pulling from-

Loren Hammonds: Yeah. Yeah. New Jack. Yeah.

Avi Weider: So here, then we have a little bio on Michael Tully. You're on set there.

Michael Tully: I look so sad.

Avi Weider: You might be a little shell shocked.

Loren Hammonds: You're just in disbelief that this movie is getting made.

Avi Weider: I can't believe I-

Loren Hammonds: This movie's getting made right now.

Michael Tully: No, I'm processing. I'm wondering how the bullet's going to feel when it goes into my body from an angry fan, or ...

Avi Weider: This is what it thinks of you. It says, "Michael Tully is a writer and director known for character driven films that move between sincerity, discomfort, and dark humor. His work often explores people caught between private desire and public identity, finding tension in moments where social rules quietly collapse. With I Need Love, Tully brings a deeply personal lens to a pivotal moment in American culture, reframing hip-hop history through intimacy, repression, and spectacle. His approach blends emotional directness with structural rigor, favoring lived in realism over irony and allowing contradiction to sit unresolved. Tully's films are marked by empathy restraint and a refusal to simplify human behavior for comfort." That's a good sell.

Loren Hammonds: No wonder you got into Cannes.

Avi Weider: Damn, man. A hard hitter.

Amy Hobby: Oh, no. Look at what AI did.

Avi Weider: This is a shot of Loren in the '80s. Clearly a photojournalist at a hip-hop show.

Michael Tully: Looks just like me.

Avi Weider: He's wearing a jeans jacket. He is got a camera.

Loren Hammonds: Acid washed. I swear to you. I actually have that camera bag though.

Avi Weider: Yeah. I bet you do.

Amy Hobby: They found that camera bag, maybe in a photo of you.

Avi Weider: What I especially like about this generated photo is it also put the date printed onto it like you used to get in those-

Amy Hobby: Oh, look that in that. Yeah. Like an old role of film.

Avi Weider: Exactly. It says, "Loren Hammonds is the head of documentary at Time Studios where he leads premium nonfiction development and production across feature series and emerging formats. Since joining Time Studios in 2021, he has executive produced projects, including Katrina Babies, Nat Geo's, The Territory, and Time's Immersive work with Meta on MLK Now is the time bringing a sharp instinct for story craft positioning and what it takes to move ambitious material from idea to audience. Previously, he served as vice president of immersive programming at Tribeca Enterprises and as senior programmer at the Tribeca Festival, building a reputation as a Peabody winning producer and curator with a pragmatic taste forward development voice." Ooh, taste forward. I like that.

Amy Hobby: Good.

Loren Hammonds: Wow. Thank you, AI.

Amy Hobby: So now we're ready for the trailer.

Avi Weider: Yeah. Let's not stop this train.

Amy Hobby: You can get some closure.

Michael Tully: I am terrified right now.

Amy Hobby: It'll be as if the film were made. Ooh, R. Of course.

Michael Tully: Maybe NC-17.

Video: In a world where the microphone was a weapon and reputation was everything, two men from opposite corners were about to fight for the crown.

Video: You hear that? One was young and unstoppable. The other was disciplined, respected. This winter the battle everyone wanted, it was only half the story because behind the cameras, behind the crowds, behind the bravado was a secret that could destroy them both. In a culture built on toughness.

Video: No more question.

Video: Vulnerability was the most dangerous move of. This isn't just a rivalry, it's a love story with no safe place to exist. When the lights go up and the world is watching, only one thing is certain. Some fights are louder than words. Some loves are worth risking everything. I Need Love written and directed by Michael Tully.

Loren Hammonds: Yes. Yes.

Amy Hobby: My favorite was the shot of the hotel room with no people in it and just the Kangol hat.

Loren Hammonds: The abandoned pants.

Michael Tully: There was one mic touch like lips on mic that seemed a little like it was trying to get there without going there.

Loren Hammonds: And at some point, I think Moe Dee turned into Kevin Hart in the trailer.

Amy Hobby: Amazing.

Loren Hammonds: It started out as Travante, but then it was like, oh, Kevin Hart's in this.

Amy Hobby: Oh, now it's Kevin Hart.

Michael Tully: Yeah. I'm impressed and shocked and appalled and amused and entertained and shocked and all of it.

Avi Weider: We've got one last-

Amy Hobby: One activity. We wanted to give you a chance to pitch it and talk to an executive about it. So we have an executive we invite as an extra guest.

Michael Tully: You're serious.

Amy Hobby: Well, yeah. His name is Finn.

Olivia: Hey everyone, I'm Olivia Finn's assistant Finn's wrapping up a bunch of last minute film festival travel logistics so he's running a little tight today, but he's really excited about this one. He read the script and it genuinely got under his skin in a good way. He's also looking forward to catching up with Loren. They haven't talked in a bit and Finn was happy to see he'd be on. Quick heads up. Finn has about 10 minutes as usual. He'll be coming in hot and he'll have to jump right when we hit time, but he's here, engaged and he's ready to [inaudible 00:45:10]. He'll be with you in just a moment.

Amy Hobby: Wait. We have hold music.

Finn: Hey, Amy. Hey Avi. Hi Michael. Good to see you all. Give me one second. I'm pulling up the pages and the deck. Okay. I've got the materials in front of me so we're talking I Need Love, a hip-hop fairytale, 1987 New York. LL Cool J and Kool Moe Dee, the rivalry as public theater masking a secret relationship. Michael, your script split spectacle and intimacy. Apollo Theater, MSG, big public set pieces. Then those claustrophobic private hotel rooms where the real risk is. Just to ground us what's the one thing you're wrestling with right now? The tone split a scene or something in how it's packaged?

Michael Tully: Oh, Finn's asking me what my question is. My question is more about ... I just love the script. I think it's fantastic. Thank you, Finn. I really appreciate all the kind words. I'm just wondering is there a logistical path to this project legally and being able to actually make it. How could you guys help with that?

Loren Hammonds: He's thinking.

Michael Tully: He's talking to his lawyers is what he's doing.

Amy Hobby: Finn? Hey Finn, did you get Michael's question?

Finn: Yeah, I'm here. Sorry. Just wanted to give it a real answer. Okay, Michael, you've got a project where LL Cool J and Kool Moe Dee are key characters using their real life personas in music set at the exact time and place those events happened. Here's the plain version. If you want to make this as a feature, you need life rights from LL and Kool Moe Dee, and likely there are states or reps. If you jump the timeline, you also need music rights, and if you're using their actual names and likeness, you need their sign-off or you risk lawsuits and losing access to the music. That means legal, yes. But more than that, you need buy-in. Those guys have to want this movie to exist. There is a workaround. You could fictionalize, change the names remix the beats inspired by instead of about, but you lose the heat of the real public rivalry. So the question is, what's non-negotiable for you? The real names in history or the emotional core with the freedom to fictionalize?

Michael Tully: I think, Finn, you nailed it, buddy. You nailed it. I think what's more important to me is the actual historical capsule of the moment. So I don't want to budge and have to come up with new songs and all that stuff. Sounds like it could be a fun project, but I really want this to be LL and Moe Dee's battle brought to life as a fairy tale.

Amy Hobby: Finn, does that make you pass on the project or might you guys try to tackle it with us?

Loren Hammonds: I'm on the edge of my seat right now. Is he going to pass?

Finn: No, I'm not passing Michael. The thing is, if you want it to be LL and Moe Dee in that real moment with their actual music, you need them on board. That's the hard truth. But if you are set on the historical capsule, I'd still go one step. Get your script to a place where it's irresistible visually and emotionally. So when you approach them, it's not just a rights ask. It's a real creative invitation. So would you want help strategizing that outreach, packaging, pitching, maybe even a proof of concept scene to get LL and Moe Dee, curious, or are you looking for more legal nuts and bolts right now?

Michael Tully: I think you're creative help. I would love to factor into the equation, Finn. You seem like you really got a good head on your shoulders.

Avi Weider: Yeah. Finn, is there anything in the script specifically that you think could get it over that hurdle so that you could get the sign off on the real people? Give us your take on that.

Finn: If I'm pitching directly, the scene that best bridges the Apollo spectacle, the crowd, the rivalry is myth with the hotel room intimacy, where the risk is actually love, not just battle is what I'd lead with. If you can get them to see themselves as legends, but also human, where the rivalry becomes a love story beneath the bravado, that's your best shot. So which scene in your script do you think has the most invite? Not just a legal ask, but something LL or Moe Dee could see and say, "Yeah, that's me, but more."?

Michael Tully: Now we're getting to therapy here. This is intense. I think the scene ... I would say the hotel room scene after the press conference when they're talking to each other.

Finn: That's the right move, Michael. The hotel room. After the press conference, you've got LL and Moe Dee stripped of audience in bravado talking for real. That's the hinge. It's not just rivalry, it's vulnerability and connection. If you highlight this scene, show the music world outside, then cut to them inside, finally able to drop the mask, you're making it clear the movie isn't just spectacle, it's empathy. That could really appeal to them. It's their history, but deeper with the fairy tale angle giving them mythic status and emotional truth. So would you want to build out that scene visually, maybe even storyboard or put together a short proof something to put in front of them as your calling card?

Amy Hobby: Hey, Finn, as Michael's agent, I'm jumping in here. I think Michael's interested in doing all that, but I think need some development funding. We just can't go through this process without somewhere around a hundred thousand bucks just to carry us through the next couple of months. Can you guys set that up?

Finn: I hear you and I get why you're asking. Developments real work and it's got costs for a project like this with life rights and music that first $100K would probably go to legal outreach and maybe some packaging. Right now I can't commit on the spot.

Michael Tully: Well, thank you, Finn.

Amy Hobby: We have some other meetings, man. We're going across town. Going to take the 10 freeway.

Avi Weider: Finn real talk, total budget on this, where would you even peg that for this a film with this a script?

Loren Hammonds: Especially with the music rights.

Finn: All right. If you go full period New York and you want real music, especially hits from LL and Moe Dee's catalogs, you're likely looking at a budget north of $20 million, maybe $30M plus. If you chase more tracks and authentic locations. Music rights alone can eat a big chunk. Question is, would you consider scaling certain set pieces down or is the scope non-negotiable for you too?

Michael Tully: I'd like to leave it as is, but that's a great question. Yeah, 20 to 30. Yeah. Well, let's take this to A24 right now they're trying to scale up, right?

Amy Hobby: We got to go Finn. This is ...

Michael Tully: I appreciate you taking the time, Finn. I really do, but I don't know if this is the exact right fit.

Finn: Totally fair, Mike,

Michael Tully: For us either as well as you.

Finn: Understood, Michael.

Avi Weider: Anything else?

Finn: Yeah. I get it. Sometimes it's about timing and the right partners. If anything shifts, reach out. Good luck across town. All right. Take care, Michael. Let's keep the door cracked. Never know when these things swing back around.

Olivia: Hey everyone, it's Olivia again. Finn just had to jump. I'm really sorry, he had hard out.

Michael Tully: Copy that.

Olivia: Loren, so good to see you. And Michael, thank you for bringing something this bold to the table. Finn was genuinely intrigued and he'll want to come back to it when he's not sprinting through an airport. Avi, Amy if you want, send me the couple of pages or scenes you most want him to hit and I'll make sure they're the first thing he looks at when he lands. Thanks again everyone.

Loren Hammonds: Thanks Olivia. She's great.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Olivia's super on top of it.

Loren Hammonds: She is.

Avi Weider: She takes care of him.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Well that's what the future is for us.

Avi Weider: It's an interesting time for sure. I think anything you do send off for coverage is likely being automated. Certainly any meeting any of us go into, probably the notes are summarized by AI also.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Of course.

Avi Weider: We're not too far off there.

Loren Hammonds: It is interesting. I'm getting ready to pitch a project next week and we have been on the fence of whether or not we're going to do the pitches via Zoom or fly out to LA and pitch in the room. This has made my decision clear for me. I'm booking my flight as soon as the show ends to ensure that everyone that I'm talking to has legs and a heartbeat.

Avi Weider: Is a real person.

Amy Hobby: Yeah.

Michael Tully: Absolutely.

Avi Weider: Loren, is anyone ... Stuff that you're looking at, people pitching to you that screams AI?

Loren Hammonds: I haven't gotten something that is obviously AI. I've gotten a couple of decks where I'm like, there's something that's just a little bit off, but there's obviously still some human touch in there. So I'm like, "You guys needed to take another pass on the deck to ensure that this actually felt real." But surprisingly, I haven't gotten something that I'm like, "Oh, you just totally spit that out." I won't even say that. It's easy to do, but it's so accessible right now and I think with the right prompt you might get fooled.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Michael, in wrapping up, how do you feel about the project and the journey here? Do you feel like you have some closure over the project, around the project personally, or are you ready to go out and pitch again? What are your thoughts?

Michael Tully: Well, first of all, I'm like, this was fun first of all to have you guys put this work in and bring it to life in that way. I feel more reassured than ever that if somehow the approval Gods came to be and these powers that be let this happen. I think we could make a really remarkable movie out of it. But I still feel like it's impossible. So I don't know where I would even begin trying to make this movie happen unless someone stumbles into it, the pieces and someone hears this and is like, "Hey, let's keep talking about this." So maybe you guys could get a credit at the end. This film is dedicated to Films Not Made.

Amy Hobby: Yeah. Thanks.

Michael Tully: Is it a challenge for you guys to have a success story, or is that not really-

Avi Weider: Challenge accepted.

Amy Hobby: We're here really to talk openly and with humor about failure, what we've learned and celebrate our work that never got seen. So there's many reasons for the show and we're just having fun. Look, if something ends up getting made, we're just curious about it. And you know what? There's an endless number of episodes because when I'm out telling people about the podcast with my producer, director, writer friends, they're like, "Oh, I've got a good one." Or, "I've met at least 10 of those." So we can just keep at it for a very long time.

Michael Tully: Forever. Yeah.

Amy Hobby: Yeah, forever.

Michael Tully: This one is weird. It's a little tricky. Just because it's ... Nothing's impossible, but it feels like an impossible. If there is anything that would get in the way of ... it's not just the idea and budget. So that's where I feel like this might be maybe a different flavor to the rest of them that are happening or maybe not. I don't know. I still just at the end of the day, don't want it to be like, not MTV, not Kurt Loder, not Russell Simmons, not Def Jams. I just think the only way this works is to keep it impossible, honestly. And if it becomes my writing sample to get me more work, then ...

Amy Hobby: Success.

Loren Hammonds: I appreciate you for really keeping that integrity though, Michael, because I think you know what's going to be best for the story and what's going to be best for the film. And I think you're right. It is something that would make a real difference, and I think people would really feel that.

Avi Weider: Yeah.

Amy Hobby: Good.

Avi Weider: Thank you so much for coming on.

Amy Hobby: Thank you, Loren for joining us.

Avi Weider: And bravely sharing it with us.

Michael Tully: Yeah. Thank you Loren.

Loren Hammonds: Thank you for having me. I'm so glad I got to sit in today.

Avi Weider: You've been listening to Films Not Made, but if you want an even better experience, check us out on YouTube where you can see all the new materials, including the pitch deck and trailer.

Amy Hobby: And subscribe to our Substack for show notes, more about our guests and industry insights.

Avi Weider: And please follow us on Instagram and TikTok as Films Not Made.

Amy Hobby: And of course we have merch. Check that out and all things Films Not Made at filmsnotmade.com.

Avi Weider: Thanks again for listening and watching. We'll see you next time.